Things you may not yet know about me:
1. I rarely ask for advice.
2. I play my cards close to the vest.
The two are obviously connected. So when an old friend called to catch up, she was surprised to hear that I was seriously dating someone -- she had assumed she'd have heard it through the grapevine. Thing is, I don't tell anyone anything, whether they be human or fruit. At any rate, she pumped me for all the details, afterward announcing that she'd never heard me so happy and then (because she is essentially me) she came right out and asked me. She asked me *that*. She asked me about the sex.
And so I told her; I needed some advice.
I told her that The Boy is a virg and it's an observant Jewish thing and he's very proud of it but not too proud that he's not dying to get rid of it. I told her that no matter how much he says he wants it, I haven't caved yet because being someone's first comes with great emotional responsibility and I don't want to be part of something he regrets. And so I told her that it makes me a little uneasy, that I didn't know if I could do it before we get married and her reaction to this was so fantastic, I had to write it down.
"Why the *fuck* not?! You know what kind of notch in your bedpost that is -- at this age to be able to take someone's virginity? That's a big ol' fucking menorah with his name on it!"
And here I was thinking romance was dead....
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2 hours ago
15 comments:
I was in the same situation; the guy is turning...28 soon.
And I dumped him because I couldn't take the pressure with the wanting to but not letting myself and so he ran off to Iraq with the Army.
And then he came home for a visit a couple of days ago and schtupped the first girl he caught ogling his uniform and I'm sitting here relieved but still thinking "Well, What the fck!!!"
ha, i know many many people who held off on sex for YEARS, holding out for marriage, passing up opportunities within relationships because they wanted to save it for marriage, etc. And as they got older, every single one of those people eventually lost their virginity to some completely random person they weren't in a relationship with, in a one-night stand situation, just to get it over with. In fact, I'm pretty sure most of them didn't even tell the person in question that they were losing their virginity at the time.
Anyways, I'm just sayin... ;)
nooooooooooo!!
if he's waited this long, let him save himself for marriage. do it for his sake.
and, y'know. the karet thing too.
I can't understand you....pre-marital sex in Orthodox Judaism, ESPECIALLY if the woman is not tehora, is a HUGE problem - like, karet problem. What is with your cavalier attitude towards it? How do you justify that?
AE: I can understand that losing one's big V in a relationship can be easier to deal with when within the framework of a relationship,so if it's going to happen, at least it's not meaningless boning. Buuuuut, I kinda would like to eliminate as much potential problems as possible and waiting seems like the best way. Although the situation is a little more complicated than I've disclosed :)
Anon: I totally get what you're saying. Do I really want to be the reason he undoes 24 years of work? Nope. But there's also more to be considered here...
Ariella: Yeah, I'm not sure you're getting it. If I were so incomprehensibly cavalier, I wouldn't even care. I'd just have fucked him six months ago like we'd both wanted. And who's not tehora? And how many people do you see falling victim to the whole karet issue? I think you're inferring a great deal and understanding very little.
I am not a fan at all of being shomer negia or anything else that comes along with it. Creates too many issues.
same anon as above.
i realize that we are obviously coming from very very different places. grew up mo. flipped (relatively speaking) in israel. i thank god that i was a dork in high school and never fooled around with anyone. but i still deeply regret (and this is after 10 yrs of marriage) that in a moment of weakness my husband, then fiance, and i fooled around. i wish that we could have gone into our marriage pure. i have done my teshuva, but you cant change reality.
if you really see this as a serious relationship that could lead to marriage, do it for the two of you. imagine how special your wedding night would be.
and, unless you go to mikvah, you are not tehorah and chayav karet for intercourse. its pretty hard core (like eating on yom kippur, eating chametz on pesach)
Yeah, so i also don't get you, nameless. i seem to recall you mercilessly trashing those "tefillin daters," claiming that you never sin pre-meditatively, and yet here you are - calmly and cooly discussing the pros and cons of fucking your boyfriend, with the only con being that he's a virgin. that's pretty damn cavalier from a halachik perspective, and as far as i see it the fact that it's totally not cavalier from an emotional perspective only makes it worse; it means that it's not a crime of passion.
Is there something i'm missing here? do you have some sort of halachik justification (i.e. go to the mikvah, became his pilegesh). By the way, i'm not judging you - just trying to understand and make sure you're not delusional.
Thank you, religiousdelicious.
Just because you haven't, as you so elegantly put it, "fucked" him yet, the fact that you are PLANNING to do it negates any claim you have about your attitude towards Judaisim, shomer negia, and most especially halacha. Like RD said, it doesn't seem like a crime of passion (which wouldn't be an excuse, just a more understandable situation). And yes, I don't know if you're technically tehora or not (you could be one of those sketchy women who goes to the mikvah single) but that's not really the point, and I think you know it (your response to me was pretty vague). Pre-marital sex in Judaism is a HUGE problem, no matter how you cut it. Period. And debating weather or not to take a guys virginity, just because you can, shows a lack of respect for halacha and Judaism, and shows the rest of us that you couldn't, excuse the pun, give a fuck.
There are far better religions you could have converted to than Orthodox Judaism
I trully hope you do not now believe that the world is 6000 years old and evolution is "just a theory"
Anyway rather than stalling just get the thing over with and free yourself of the shame
Is anyone seeing here that I am saying I'm NOT going to bone him? Or do you just see the words "sex" and "not married" and immediately haul your asses up onto that fantastic religious soapbox, yammering away far too loudly to hear what's actually going on? :)
Make another post on your blog, nameless!
We need more you so we can know you better so we can "Dan l'kaf zechut".
Um, you never said you're NOT going to bone him, you said you were "considering it".
"I told her that no matter how much he says he wants it, I haven't caved yet because being someone's first comes with great emotional responsibility and I don't want to be part of something he regrets. And so I told her that it makes me a little uneasy, that I didn't know if I could do it before we get married..."
I see wavering and indecision - but NOWHERE do I see hesitation for religious reasons, only that you would be "his first".
If he was struggling with this being a religious issue, then I would counter appropriately. But that's not the case and that's not why I'm mentioning it -- the part I have a real issue with is the little bit of virginity, and that's because it's the only real concern. The religious thing is obviously a given, or should I insert a line at the top of every post that I am Jewish? Some things are meant to be understood. In addition, I was never *debating* about taking his virginity. Like I said, the entire conversation was had because my friend could not understand why I had already made the decision not to bone him as of yet.
That being said, the "halachic justification" is complete bullshit. Going to the mikvah, the whole pilegesh scene, etc. is just circumventing proper behavior. If you're going to violate the code, don't be a slithery little self-serving shit about it and try to use sneaky justifications and crafty loopholes to cripple the spirit of the law.
What I don't undertsand is why his beiong a virgin would be an issue to begin with. His inexperience is a good thing. I would definitely want to bone a virgin as they are are malliable and you get a feeling of power. However I am a man so it might be different for me.
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